Oh how often do we hear this tossed around by the fundamentalist "defenders of truth"?
This comes up often in my mind and seems to always set in motion some wonderful things to think about. It happened this morning after reading through a dialog on Amazon.com which involved a few folks who have expressed great concern with the book The Shack. And don't misunderstand me, I have no problem with people expressing a critical view of the book and it's content or any book for that matter. I think the conversation can be very helpful.
These days I'm left scratching my head trying to understand how the religions of the world hold to a view of God that seems to resemble how alienated humanity, men and women, act toward each other (exclusive, full of rage, longing to make others pay dearly for their mistakes...unforgiving, violent, and selective based upon what serves our desires best, and the list goes on.....) and can't see that maybe that is the height of humanity making God in our own image. Think about it. It just seems to me that the religious fundamentalists of the world have created a god that looks pretty much like they do.
And when others stand up and say "Wait a minute" and they present a God that is committed to reconciling back unto himself that which is lost because he loves them...REALLY LOVES THEM, the "defenders of truth" accuse those folks of attempting to make God in their own image.
Here's why that seems to be twisted to me these days. I can toss a stone into the air while standing in the crowd made up of humanity and pretty much be assured of hitting many people who more closely resemble the god of religious fundamentalism and sadly would be hard pressed to hit someone that acts like the God represented in the book The Shack.
So I'm left with this question. What would a god made in our image really look like? If we really make him in our image he really wouldn't be loving and full of grace and mercy now would he?
43 comments:
And for me that brings up another question. Is inerency so popular because it allows one to hang onto an image of God that was made before Jesus incarnated and disproved it?
Oops -- I misread your final paragraph and didn't notice the negative in "wouldn't". So here's a corrected version of my comment:
I agree that for most of us, a God made in our image would not be loving and full of grace. As humans, we're too self-centered. I think the angry god is really the God made in our image, as is the "anything goes" god. They may sound contradictory, but both of these versions of "God" allow us to magnify ourselves and get away with whatever we want.
You might be interested in reading Catherine of Genoa, for she has a conception of our relationship to God that might allow the possibility of God in our image to be a good thing. For her, true pride is not sinful, because it recognizes that we are made in God's image and acts accordingly: it is a pride that leads to love, humility, grace, etc. The only way I could see a God made in our image as being a loving, gracious God is if we ourselves have already been transformed into the image of Christ.
I'm a firm believer that people don't truly want God, since then they lose control over their lives.
Kent,
I haven't read He Loves Me or some of the other books you've read so I don't know if this is addressed in them...I'm wondering what you have come to think of whether or not God acts out of wrath.
One thing that was left unresolved, for me, in The Shack was that the story of the killer was left out. So what do we do when the killer is found? Is there any justice?
The sacred stories of every culture have made gods in their own image which are used, and kept in vogue, by keeping the cycle of fear and conformity going. I agree with you that if our sacred story makes God in our image, the image would be a tool to keep the masses conformed to operating within that image which creates fear so that control can be exercised by those in authority....cause there has to be a hierarchy in an operating system of fear and control.
Jesus didn't use his authority to control anyone or to cause fear in anyone but those who were already fearful of their own failure, the Pharisees. Paul said he had authority given to him by Christ but following Christ's own example, he didn't use it to gain control or to put fear into anyone for not conforming. It was all about love.
Now, the issue I've been thinking about is:
If people make gods in their own image and lose all ability to comprehend the loving God we know....how does God reintroduce Himself?
When I look at the OT, I wonder how much of what God said, was trying to bridge a gap between a "stiff necked people" who wanted a god of wrath and vengeance and the love He wanted to pour out on them.
In other words, if Vladimir Putin had come into his presidency as a loving, gentle and kind leader, no one would have listened to him because he was beginning to lead a people left cold in the wake of communist oppression. Like a first grade teacher on the first day of school, he's had to first gain respect and a voice by being strong and commanding.
I'm not comparing Putin to God, but trying to illustrate why God may have come across in such a seemingly harsh way in the OT.
Is it possible that when God said things like, "my anger burns against you", He was trying to get the attention of people who's minds were so accustomed to power and fear based thinking that they would have scoffed and turned away completely at the thought of a tender God who really wanted to heal their deepest hurts and insecurities?
Just some thoughts.
...and..by justice above, I mean human justice...how we respond to crimes against people. :)
Jennifer, I wonder about that too, the whole concept of justice and what it means.
The killer - well, you want to try to stop him from doing that kind of thing again. But it often strikes me how much people mix up justice with vengeance. They want to make him *pay* - but then I think if you're that screwed up that you're going around murdering 6 year old children, then I imagine the prison of your mind would be a pretty crap place to be.
What are we to think about Jesus coming back in the resurrection and totally ignoring those who killed him and were continuing to kill others?
Jennifer, as for God's wrath, Wayne does explore a description of it in He Loves Me. I think we humans create big problems for ourselves and others in our perception of God when we look at Him and what he is up to from a legal perspective. So, does wrath = vengeance? Or does justice = punishment? I think if attempt to understand these things through a prism of fear and violence we will always see a god to fear who ultimately uses violence to enforce Law.
Paul Young the author of The Shack answered the question about the God of wrath being absent in the story in one of the recent God Journey Podcasts. It's one of the things people who attack the book use to attack the book. Paul responds by saying, "Show me one example in the book that God lets Mack off the hook." The God depicted in the story turns Mack inside out and exposes him. Not to punish him because he is disgusted with him but it is to set him free. It just turns out that God does it through loving him patiently and graciously. Mack makes more difficult choices of repenting (turning and going the other way) than I have seen in all the people I know, including myself in all my years of thinking of an angry god ready to pour it out on people.
Fear, and law inforcement through fear, has never set anyone free. But when God's love casts out fear, freedom becomes a reality. And those that are being set free...are truly free.
Justice is about restoring things to Right...reconciled relationships to God our creator and then to our neighbor. Holding people accountable through fear of punishment is alienated man's deal. The world system and civil societies do not understand God's justice. They understand fallen humanities way of attempting to keep people inline. I rarely ever expect anything other than that out of it anymore. I no longer refer to our system of dealing with people who break the laws of the land as a system of justice because it is not. It is a punitive system. Restoring relationships and healing broken people is not a part of it and that is what God through his son and his kingdom is about.
Jennifer, here is how Wayne describes God's wrath.
The full weight of God's being directed at the thing that destroys the object of his affection.
Diane, there are probably many reasons for the crazy things we do.
As long as people are gripped by fear and are bound by the tyranny of self preservation (hanging on to the life Jesus said we must let go of)the violence of the OT will continue to trump the sacrificial life we see in Jesus and his disciples. Jesus and his call to love and forgive even our enemies will be pushed aside and the violence and killing in the OT will be used to justify the continuation of it by those who say they represent God. Jesus stands outside the world's religions that resort to violence.
One day again there will be a people that fill the earth and they will follow Jesus in his way because they will be set free from fear and will trust Father in the same way he does.
Stephen, thanks for your contribution.
You said this:
"I'm a firm believer that people don't truly want God, since then they lose control over their lives."
You are absolutely right. That is why religion is so popular.
> If people make gods in their own image and lose all ability to comprehend the loving God we know....how does God reintroduce Himself?
Ellul suggests that God cannot (or will not) reintroduce himself. In this case, we truly have seen the death of God -- not because God is dead, but because we refuse to receive God in the way God chooses to reveal himself to us....
Kent,
I think we humans create big problems for ourselves and others in our perception of God when we look at Him and what he is up to from a legal perspective.
I think so too...this is what makes me wonder if so many things that were said in the OT were said because God was dealing with people rwho couldn't see beyond the legal, fearful, power based structures they were accustomed to in Egypt. Poor Moses.
Justice is about restoring things to Right..
I love that! Do you think that means we are sort of hands off in the community though? I'm wondering how we "do justice" in our communities as partners with God in being His body...
There's a part in the book, When Heaven Weeps when some village women follow the example of their beloved priest and they stop being controlled by fear. They defy, gently but powerfully, the orders of the "bad guy" and he doesn't know what to do...he ends up turning all of his wrath toward the priest, but the image is so powerful. Through their action they basically seem to say, "do whatever you want, I'm not going to fight because my Jesus doesn't".
One of the women was the mother of a young girl who was shot in the head just minutes before. That's powerful stuff and I can see it, but I'm not sure if I'm up to it...yet. I start to get a glimpse of the Body we could be and then a bit of fear creeps in and I shrink back a little...maybe this is just the next stage of growth.
Restoring relationships and healing broken people is not a part of it and that is what God through his son and his kingdom is about.
How do you see this working in practical terms...logistics? I'm not asking for anything exhaustive, just your opinion...if you have one and have the time and energy to let us know! No pressure!
Do you happen to remember which podcast Paul Young was on? I've been on there but haven't taken the time to listen yet. I'll look and see if I can figure it out. Thanks for the tip.
okdiane,
What are we to think about Jesus coming back in the resurrection and totally ignoring those who killed him and were continuing to kill others?
Good thought! This is the core of what I'm thinking of. Then I think, "do we ignore the Jeffery Dahmers of the world to carry on and wait for God to work in them? I think of those who love God and are police officers, judges, attorneys etc... and are involved in the punitive system, as Kent said, because we need a tangible form of keeping harmful people from causing more harm. I don't know...I'm just fishing. :)
Sue,
Thanks for letting me know you are wondering the same thing.
I agree about the prison of the mind...and then there must be a way of removing that person from being able to continue harming others...somehow...it's a conundrum.
Something that happened in the life of my past pastor and a good friend was an incident with a good friend of theirs who was a missionary in South America. He was charged and admitted to molesting some girls at his daughter's sleep over. My pastor and good friend met him at the airport when he came into the states to be put in custody and told him they loved him and were with him, yet made it clear they were not condoning what he'd done. They supported the findings of the court and let this man know they were his brothers while he was in prison and out.
I think that's the way it should be but then I wonder what the role of a follower of Christ is within the system? Should we have any punitive system?
Kent,
Will you ever let me comment again!? :)
Kent,
The full weight of God's being directed at the thing that destroys the object of his affection.
Do you think that is why God used physical death? Physical death is preferable to save the soul?
Stephen,
Ellul suggests that God cannot (or will not) reintroduce himself. In this case, we truly have seen the death of God -- not because God is dead, but because we refuse to receive God in the way God chooses to reveal himself to us....
That's so true. I once talked with a man who said he would believe in God if he stood in Time's Square and announced Himself and then did so about once every year. That has nothing to do with relationship and I really can't imagine being the friend of a god who chose to reveal Himself that way, but maybe that's what people are looking for. There's no effort needed on their part to relate and take time for God. So sad, but I can understand where the idea comes from.
By God introducing himself, I was thinking of the Israelites...that God was once known but then He made an introduction to the nation that grew up within Egypt. (Maybe you already knew that's what I meant, but I wanted to clarify just in case.)
"Defenders of the Truth"
I've recently been doing alot of thinking about similiar things. I've long believed that God didn't need me to defend what he has revealed to me. God has shown nothing but "Love" and I can only use this "Love" as my expression of God to others.. it is all I know.
When I see people who are struggling to find God within the most toxic of faiths my heart aches. I feel helpless. I desparately want to reveal what God has shown me. My truth??!? How do I do this though, without attacking their existing faith? This is my greatest torment I think. To be constantly in two minds. If God could reach me, who am I to think that he will not reveal himself to others... and yet, maybe I should be more active in showing this incredible Love to others.. and I am reminded of my Journey..
That I am no greater than any other human on this earth. That "Love" which has been shown to me is deserved by all who shall seek it.
Humanity will always try to humanise God, because we are limited by our humanity. Humanity, our very flesh-mortality is the limited vision that we see through. People who don't believe in a punitive God, will say, "That being Good (living in love) has it own rewards" Maybe they have failed to see, that the lack of reward they feel when they haven't been Good, that guilt or darkness or whatever, is what the absense of God is.
Therefore, even their own Goodness has a humanised agenda. They do good/loving things to feel good, to feel closer to God. God isn't Good (of Love), because it makes God feel better. God's Love has no agenda, God gains nothing else from loving us, that God does not already have.
Attempting to humanise Gods Love greatly limits it.
Jennifer, comment all you want. I love the things you add here.
As far as living God's justice in the community I think that is what we are called to do....but this is not about following "principles" of justice...it's about listening to Father and doing what he leads us to do in the moment. I am convinced that it will always be sacrificial and self giving in nature.
Jennifer said:
"That's powerful stuff and I can see it, but I'm not sure if I'm up to it...yet. I start to get a glimpse of the Body we could be and then a bit of fear creeps in and I shrink back a little...maybe this is just the next stage of growth."
I know perfectly what you mean Jennifer. Here is the response I often used as Jesus was walking me through this stuff.
"I don't know if I can do this." And his response without fail was this: "I know, but I can take you there and we will go together and we will go at your pace."
I am so humbled today at the reality of this change he has accomplished and is still accomplishing in me. I would not have gone here on my own...this is all grace and he is responsible for this change in me.
Here is another question Jennifer asked about this that I said:
Restoring relationships and healing broken people is not a part of it and that is what God through his son and his kingdom is about.
How do you see this working in practical terms...logistics?
I have no expectation that I place on it anymore. And in turn I have never felt more loved by Father through a relationship with him that is being restored and free of fear and I have never felt more free to be available to others. The tangible difference in regards to this...the giving and the availability to others no longer exhausts me and leaves me frustrated. The others he has joined me to and given me a desire to walk with bless me so deeply. It's all just so wonderfully different.
As for a punitive system...the world needs it but I no longer put any faith or trust in it nor do I ever see it producing the justice Jesus is working to accomplish.
Here is something I have posted here before. I love this.
"Martens did a masterful job of defining the Hebrew word for justice, mishpat. In western society we have come to understand justice as something we receive (I am a victim, I demand justice) or we dispense (he was convicted and justice was served). But mishpat could best be defined as "honorable relations." Justice is something that we do in relationship with others. It is active not passive. The goal is shalom -- not merely the absence of conflict, but the presence of harmony in relationships. What might a country look like if it practiced this kind of justice?"
Jennifer, I think Paul, Wayne and Brad talk about it in the podcast: A Visit to The Shack.
http://www.thegodjourney.com/podcast.html
Thanks so much Kent, this is wonderful!
I'm going to listen to that podcast right now.
Jennifer, it must be in the podcast before the one I told you and it is called A Colabrative Life. You will find it around the 13 minute mark.
Great conversation going on here :)
Kent said: "As for a punitive system...the world needs it but I no longer put any faith or trust in it nor do I ever see it producing the justice Jesus is working to accomplish."
______________________
No. I have been thinking a lot about the prison system lately, and about how He wants us to go to those in prison and be relational with them. I have started reading Wally Lamb's book "Couldn't Keep it to Myself", an anthology of writing which came out of a writing workshop he led every second Thursday at a maximum security women's prison.
The response of one of his acquaintances when he told her what he was doing was thus: "As I described the prison workshops, a distasteful smirk took hold of this woman's face. 'Gee, maybe I should go rob a bank or kill someone,' she said. 'Then I could go down there and join all the fun.'"
That woman's attitude displayed all the bad fruit of the "justice as retribution" camp. Thank God that his view is higher and broader, more sweeping, all encompassing and beautiful than ours. Ahhh, thank you, Jesus
I'm going to listen to that podcast now :) Thanks for the chat guys!
Wow lots of great comments. I had 2 related comments to make, but not sure if they are needed now :-). Oh well, here they are anyway.
First, when Jesus said "You are of your father the devil", (Jn 8:44 if u need the addr) he wasn't talking to devil worshippers; he was talking to people who claimed to worship God. What's up with that? I think he was pointing out that the image of God they were worshipping really looked more like the devil.
Second, just wanted to throw out that wonderful line from Anne Lamott - "you can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out God hates all the same people you do.”
Kent,
Thanks again...I listened to the first podcast and I'm looking forward tot he second when I have time...and thanks for the minute mark, that will save some time.
Rick,
When you said this:
I think he was pointing out that the image of God they were worshiping really looked more like the devil.
I can see that, it makes sense.
Do you believe the devil is figurative here then? Jesus also said at one point in Scripture, "who has put the evil eye on you?" and He was referring to the ancient superstition of "the evil eye". It seems He said some strange things that almost sound like He gave merit to them when what really seems to be happening is that He was using their typical speech to show them the error of their ways.
Then I wonder what the difference is between "the devil" and Satan? Do you believe Satan is real? I feel a word study coming on. :)
Kent said: I know perfectly what you mean Jennifer. Here is the response I often used as Jesus was walking me through this stuff.
"I don't know if I can do this." And his response without fail was this: "I know, but I can take you there and we will go together and we will go at your pace."
***
That’s been my experience, too, Kent.
***
Kent said: As for a punitive system...the world needs it but I no longer put any faith or trust in it nor do I ever see it producing the justice Jesus is working to accomplish.
***
A punitive system offers the world’s peace and not the peace that Jesus provides. It’s probably a way of seeking protection from the self giving that Jesus’ peace requires. The more I’ve been drawn into God’s love the more I’ve come to see punishment as unnecessary.
***
Rick Gibson said: First, when Jesus said "You are of your father the devil", (Jn 8:44 if u need the addr) he wasn't talking to devil worshippers; he was talking to people who claimed to worship God. What's up with that? I think he was pointing out that the image of God they were worshipping really looked more like the devil.
***
Since Jesus described the devil as the father of lies it seems likely they were worshiping a false image of God based on a lie. I believe that lie was, and continues to be, that God is a rival who is withholding something from us and must be appeased and/or manipulated to get our needs met.
awesome post and awesome comments!
Jennifer,
[...]the great dragon[...]that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world:[...] Rev 12:9
That verse indicates that all those expressions mean the same thing.
FWIW, I believe it is a personification of all the lies we human beings have come up with in trying to interpret the circumstances we find ourselves in. Jesus draws us into all truth and destroys those deceptions.
Diane, the way you described that has over the past few years begun to make so many things fall into place for me when before the way I had been shaped to believe just didn't fit.
okdiane,
Good verse, thanks for pulling that up. I can accept that and even run with it.
Then there's the story of Lucifer...do you believe that's literal? Then there's Jesus in the desert being tempted by...?????
Just this past year I let go of hell...I never grasped it, but just held it in the same package with the rest with a little check mark in my mind to some day gain a better understanding. Now that that is gone, where does that leave Lucifer?
Thank you for bearing with me as I pick your brains.
Jennifer,
Lucifer is used only once in scripture in Isaiah in 14:12 and is a reference to the king of Babylon.
What do you think of this?
I'm listening in and I am enjoying it the conversation Jennifer and Diane. Very interesting.
Jennifer,
Thanks for the link. I enjoyed the article. He confirms my take on Lucifer but seems to have a different understanding of Satan.
Kent,
Glad you're enjoying this exchange. I know I am.
Okdiane,
Can you point me to or explain what you understand about Satan?
I'm really interested in your perspective.
Kent,
I'm glad you're such a gracious host :).
Jennifer,
I would say that I came to that understanding through reading Rene Girard and his disciples. As a quick way of finding an introduction to Girardian thought I went to a website I'm familiar with at
http://girardianlectionary.net/
Here are couple of things to get you started: Girard's own article "Are the Gospels Mythical?". (Hint: Girard's answer to this question is a resounding "No!" Quite contrary to a Bultmannian approach of our needing to 'demythologize' the gospels, Girard contends that the Gospels are constantly at work to 'demythologize' us!); http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3856
And an interview with Girard at http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-040-i
I don't know if they'll be what you're looking for but at this time I really don't know how to explain it. Maybe I should work on that.
It's interesting Diane that you have read Rene Girard. Surprise surprise. I have loved what I have read of his.
I've loved what I've read of Girard's as well. So simple ... and so totally all-encompassing. So simple ... yet so slippery it continually slips out of my hands (which is a really good sign :)
Sue, hopefully it's not slipping out of your heart.:)
When Jennifer asked her question I was at a loss. It's way beyond words for me. I'm grateful others have been able to appoximate it with words so I can hear more about it. James Alison is my favorite Girardian.
Kent,
I saw that you posted a link to one of Alison's videos on the godjourney forum. Is he new to you?
I've read all of his books and virtually all that's at his website.
Diane, I had been on his website before and read some things but had never watched any of the videos. I ran across him while reading Richard Rohr a couple years ago.
Thanks for the reference to Alison, Diane. This whole Girardian thing is by far the thing that has been resonating the most for me over the last year in terms of theology ... but it sits on the backburner a great deal of the time while I try to process it. This guy is SO onto something :)
Diane, do you have a link to James Alison's website?
Sue,
I agree. The website is at http://www.jamesalison.co.uk/
Sue,
There's a great seminar that was done but has never been posted on Alison's website because one of the links takes you to the wrong video. The links for the seminar are at (http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/education/?institute-victim-podcasts)
You'll need to use http://trinity.bndpr.com/podcasts/07JAallagainstone2.mp4 (for some reason it's cutting off the 4 after mp when I preview so be sure there's a 4 at the end when you put it in your browser) to get to Part Two: Why Does this Story Make us Queasy?
Hope this makes sense.
Oh, dude, thank you for this link! I am DEFINITELY gonna listen/to watch these - right up my alley at the present time, dealing with my own inner yukness :)
Thanks heaps :)
Thanks okdiane, I appreciate the info!
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